Correct ca bundle to use

It depends upon what one means by a "CA bundle". For example, if you're a cPanel user, you can absolutely include both the R3 (signed by ISRG Root X1) and cross-signed ISRG Root X1 (signed by DST Root CA X3) intermediate certificates in the CA bundle box when installing a certificate via the cPanel SSL interface.

4 Likes

Actually I can't install it in cPanel if I include the DST Root CA X3 intermediate certificate.

I can if I exclude the DST Root CA X3 intermediate certificate.

When I inquired about this with my provider, they told me the DST Root CA X3 certificate is invalid. But when I check it, it shows as being valid until September 30, 2024.

Everything works without the DST Root CA X3 certificate for me, so I assume I'm up to date and using the ISRG Root X1 root certificate.

I guess ultimately the argument I'm having with my provider is that the DST Root CA X3 certificate (which I gather is an intermediate certificate) is included in the ca.cer file when my acme.sh client issues a certificate. I just assumed that that certificate should be included in the ca bundle when installing the certificate, even though it's probably not being used.

But I don't understand why it's invalid. I mean, cPanel's not installing it, so maybe it is invalid. But I don't really understand why it's invalid. And if it is invalid, why is it being included in the ca.cer file when issuing a certificate through acme.sh?

I'm sure I'm confusing something. I just don't really know what.

1 Like

You should never include the self-signed DST Root CA X3 root certificate in your cPanel CA bundle because it's a root certificate. You should only include the two intermediate certificates that I mentioned (R3 signed by ISRG Root X1 and ISRG Root X1 signed by DST Root CA X3) if you want to use the long/default chain. You should only include the R3 signed by ISRG Root X1 intermediate certificate if you want to use the short/alternate chain.

3 Likes

Yea - the ISRG Root X1 signed by DST Root CA X3 - is the one I'm referring to. If I include that in the ca bundle field when installing a certificate, the certificate does not install.

1 Like

You must include both intermediates in the field, like this:

-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----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-----END CERTIFICATE-----
-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE----- 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-----END CERTIFICATE-----
2 Likes

For reference, CertSage (the ACME client that I authored), includes detailed cPanel certificate installation instructions that includes both intermediate certificates only the first intermediate.

2 Likes

Yea, that's what I try to install.

When I install that ca bundle, my imap and smtp connections are no longer secure.

If I install just:

-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----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-----END CERTIFICATE-----

imap and smtp work.

But both certificate - like you posted - are included in the ca.cer that I get when a certificate is issued.

1 Like

Interesting... :thinking:

Let me check something...

1 Like

"DST Root CA X3" is not, and I don't think has ever been used as, an intermediate certificate.
It is a ROOT certificate.
Thus, as such, should never be included in any bundle.

There are currently only two valid bundles (by bundle here I'm referring to the cert + chain).
Short path:
[leaf signed by R3], [R3 signed by "ISRG Root X1"]
Long path (default):
[leaf signed by R3], [R3 signed by "ISRG Root X1"], ["ISRG Root X1" signed by "DST Root CA X3"]

4 Likes

I just tested my GoDaddy cPanel shared hosting instance (mail.griffin.software) several ways and got some odd results.

:confused:

By including both intermediate certificates in the CA bundle...

TLS/SSL: Serves both intermediate certificates if I click to "update" the certificate, but serves only the R3 intermediate certificate if I install the certificate anew.
https://decoder.link/sslchecker/mail.griffin.software/443

SMTP: Serves only the R3 intermediate certificate.
https://decoder.link/sslchecker/mail.griffin.software/465

IMAP: Serves the default GoDaddy intermediate certificates.
https://decoder.link/sslchecker/mail.griffin.software/993

POP3: Serves the default GoDaddy intermediate certificates.
https://decoder.link/sslchecker/mail.griffin.software/995

I can definitively say that I recommend not using the long/default chain with GoDaddy cPanel shared hosting.

@meisner

Your approach is probably the best here. Thanks for bringing my awareness to this absurdity. I will be cracking some skulls following up on this in the near future

4 Likes

You missed one port (also shows the short chain):

openssl s_client -connect mail.griffin.software:587 -servername mail.griffin.software -starttls smtp | head
depth=2 C = US, O = Internet Security Research Group, CN = ISRG Root X1
verify return:1
depth=1 C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
verify return:1
depth=0 CN = griffin.software
verify return:1
250 HELP
CONNECTED(00000005)
---
Certificate chain
 0 s:CN = griffin.software
   i:C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
 1 s:C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
   i:C = US, O = Internet Security Research Group, CN = ISRG Root X1
---
2 Likes

I thought SMTP was 465.

1 Like

I have no idea why people use 465.
The TLS required port is 587.

4 Likes

With GoDaddy, secure SMTP won't work on 587.

3 Likes

I rest my case.

4 Likes

GoDaddy has it backwards... :rofl:

4 Likes

I guess the 465 ("movement") is too big to fail...
Now even Gmail supports it:
image

3 Likes

WTF???
"Non-SSL Setings" for port 587 ?!?!?!
The entire point of 587 was to require TLS.
Leave it to GD!

3 Likes

Even on port 25, they serve the short chain:

openssl s_client -connect mail.griffin.software:25 -servername mail.griffin.software -starttls smtp | head
depth=2 C = US, O = Internet Security Research Group, CN = ISRG Root X1
verify return:1
depth=1 C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
verify return:1
depth=0 CN = griffin.software
verify return:1
250 HELP
CONNECTED(00000005)
---
Certificate chain
 0 s:CN = griffin.software
   i:C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
 1 s:C = US, O = Let's Encrypt, CN = R3
   i:C = US, O = Internet Security Research Group, CN = ISRG Root X1
---
3 Likes

Some of their design decisions are truly mind-boggling.

2 Likes